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cadetrob

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Apr 25 12 8:13 PM

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Hi,  I'm the new owner of a Bristol 29 in Long Island which is missing its rudder and post. Do you have any advice on how to repair this? Or by any chance, does anyone on here have a rudder and post available from a Bristol 29 they are parting out? Attached are recent pics of the problem area. Thanks in advance! Rob







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#1 [url]

Apr 26 12 9:25 AM





You are the second B29 owner who needed a new rudder that I've met. I have prepared some angle templates and measurements if you wish to undertake building a new rudder:
http://www.bristol29.com/Projects/bottom/bottom.htm#More_Rudder_Details

The B29 rudder is a beautifully designed rudder, perfect for the boat. However, it is vulnerable to lifting off the bottom pintel if it is slinged incorrectly or possibly running up on a reef or ledge and bending the rudder post. To correct this vulnerability, the boat needs a substantial rudder stop added (also detailed on the linked page above).

From your photos it appears that the pintel that fits down into the rudder shoe is lost. Normally it is a bronze pin that is secured by an athwartships bolt ( you can see the indentations on either side of the shoe where the bolt is or was). The pintel fits into a bronze gudgeon in the bottom of the rudder. From the rudder shaft tube that is shown decending from the bottom of the hull, it looks to me as if a PO was doing some sort of modification. Normally the rudder post tube is recessed and not visible.

You might ask around the yard, the rudder post may have been bent and discarded, you might be able to straighten the post or use the rudder as a mold for a new one. Barring that, a new rudder would have to be build from scratch. I would use epoxied marine plywood covered in epoxied biaxial cloth and a solid stainless or bronze post - a pipe would not be strong enough.

Good luck,

David



Restoring a Bristol 29 in my backyard. www.bristol29.com

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cadetrob

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#2 [url]

Apr 26 12 3:12 PM


Hi David, Thanks for your quick reply. Your site is priceless....I've learned a lot from it (like watching where the yard puts the sling) and was very relieved to find it. 

Are the Bristol's pintel and gudgeon items I can purchase off the shelf or am I better off bolting a new, "aftermarket" pintel onto the keel? 

My mistake.....that IS the rudder post in the pic. I thought it was supposed to be longer so I stated it was missing.  Does it look bent? Do you know the length of the original rudder post? I see your diameter dimensions on the site.  I was told by the PO that the yard threw away the old rudder. I will see if maybe they still have it. If not, I will build a new one based on your specs, pics and recommendations. Do I understand this correctly?...The rudder post leads from the cockpit into a gudgeon on top of the rudder. And that is where the rudder post ends. And then a pintel bolted onto the rudder shoe leads into a gudgeon at the bottom of the rudder? 

Also, the PO did not use the sink. With the seacock open, I poured water and it was clogged. I took off the old hose and found some intermediary metal in the hose which was the cause of the clog.  (see pics). Can I simply connect a new hose from the sink to the seacock? 

Thanks again for all of your time and work! Rob










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#3 [url]

Apr 27 12 6:56 AM



Rob,

Regarding the rudder. There are no aftermarket parts for the B29 or any Bristol for that matter. You can fashion a new pintel, which is what I did about 15 years ago. I used a large stainless steel bolt and ground away the threads and rounded the end, and drilled a hole thru it to be secured by the athwartships anchor bolt. The gudgeon is actually a bronze cup that the pintel fits up into. The depth of the cup is around an inch to 1.5 inches. If I were building a new rudder I'd have the gudgeon machined out of stainless. My guess is that the rudder was damaged or frozen to the pintel and the yard cut the rudder off, leaving the stub of the rudder post and chewing up the rudder shoe. There should be a law against boatyards!
The sink: I would guess the tailpiece to the sink corroded/rusted and plugged up the hose. Often the tailpiece is not stainless, but soft brass or mild steel purchased from Home Depot and they don't last in salt water. When the B29 heels on the port tack the hose completely fills with sea water.  From your photos it looks like the seacock or hose has been leaking for a long time so I would check out the seacock before installing a new hose and definitely double hose clamp the new hose at the seacock.
If I can help in any way, just let me know.

Cheers,

David

Restoring a Bristol 29 in my backyard. www.bristol29.com

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cadetrob

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#4 [url]

Apr 27 12 7:10 PM

Hi David,  I'll touch base on the rudder. I'm sure I'll have more questions :-) I'm just wondering how the rudder post is secured to the rudder. I really wish I had the old rudder as a reference. I found a site/company that fabricates classic boat parts. (link below) I'm thinking about letting them fashion a gudgeon and pintal. But I'll probably wind up taking your advice with altering a stainless bolt and machining a gudgeon. 

Thanks again!

http://www.bristolbronze.com/

PS The seacock with the strainer is the intake for the head? The pic below is of the starboard side. 

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cadetrob

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#5 [url]

Apr 27 12 7:37 PM

The rudder post is 1.25" solid tobin bronze. The rudder is solid fiberglass around a solid bronze structure welded to the rudder post.

Just saw that info on your restoration site. That answers how the rudder post is secured to the rudder. I guess it is sort of the rudder's "skeleton". Again, I'm hoping the yard has the old rudder still. 

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#6 [url]

Apr 28 12 6:07 AM


The strainer is the seacock for your raw water intake for the engine. If you want marine quality bronze fittings, personally would not use Bristol Bronze; I would use Spartan Marine fon the east coast or Port Townsend Foundry on the west coast.

What is the hull number of your boat and what is her name?

Restoring a Bristol 29 in my backyard. www.bristol29.com

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cadetrob

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#7 [url]

Apr 28 12 7:40 AM

Hi David, Thanks for the fitting lead.....  no pun intended :-) The hull number is 6T9811N (1968). Does that make sense? I took this number from the registration. Her present name is Sweet PEA and she is on the hard in Port Washington, NY. I'm pretty certain I will be changing the name. The PO is a close friend and the PEA  portion was an acronym for his kids. After the rudder is fixed, she mostly needs tlc that I can do over time. My goal after the rudder is to configure the head better (The black tank is in the forepeak), connect the fresh water tank to the sink (It is all rusty and corroded inside the tank so I am thinking of lining it with a bladder or installing a new tank...my friend carted portable water bottles around), and my friend bypassed the fuel tank with portable tanks citing the fuel tank was leaking. My friend had it on a mooring at a yacht club last summer even though she had no rudder. He would fish off of her. When my friend got the boat 15 years ago, the A4 was not working (he had it rebuilt). Below is a pic from a few days ago.  I have until June 1st to get the rudder fixed or the yard fees start again. 



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cadetrob

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#8 [url]

Apr 28 12 8:19 AM

PS: I found this on your site:  " It’s solid fiberglass with a bronze webbing welded to the solid bronze rudderpost inside."

 Do you happen to have a schematic of the rudder's bronze webbing with welded rudder post? Have you ever seen it? If you don't have a schematic, do you think you can sketch one I can use as a starting point?  Whether I do it or a shop does, I think it will help ensure a quality,as close to original, job. Thanks, Rob

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#9 [url]

Apr 28 12 7:37 PM


Rob,
I don't have a drawing of the internals of the rudder. I think simply welding some horizontal braces to the rudder post and sandwiching plywood sides to each side, saturate everything in epoxy and then glass the exterior in 4 layers of 24oz biaxial cloth and it will outlive you and the boat.

David

Restoring a Bristol 29 in my backyard. www.bristol29.com

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cadetrob

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#10 [url]

Apr 29 12 6:35 AM

Hi David, As always, thanks for the replies. I'm looking at the pic of your rudder and based on the angle, it looks like the rudder post ends right above the prop. Am I thinking right? And then maybe the webbing structure contours around the prop like in the pic below? Also, I know that you grease your pintal/gudgeon but I was wondering if the pintal length has to be slightly longer than the gudgeon depth to avoid excessive rubbing on the rudder shoe by the bottom of the rudder. Did the reg. number I gave tell you her build number? I'm going to look for the hull placard the next time I go to the boat. Thanks!

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#11 [url]

Apr 29 12 8:06 AM



Rob,

The hull number you gave me is something assigned by your state and has no relevance to the boat. The boat's hull number is stamped into the builder's plaque at the aft cockpit bulkhead. Typically the hull number will be on your mainsail.

As to the rudder, I assume the post curves around the prop opening, as all keel hung rudders are built this way. Since the most leverage of the rudder is at the bottom surface you would have to have integrity of the rudder post down its full length and tied into the flush gudgeon.

The way the rudder is designed, the bottom of the rudder does indeed rub against the top surface of the rudder shoe--i think that is a better arrangement than the top of the pintel taking the full weight of the rudder (80 - 100 pounds) against the inside top of the gudgeon. The gudgeon is fashioned as a cup and if you had sand up in there from some thin water, it could grind away and damage the gudgeon. To reduce the abrasion from the bottom of the rudder against the top of the shoe, I  fashioned a thin delrin washer that fit over the pintel. The washer provides a lubricated surface to prevent the two surfaces from abraiding.

One weakness in the Bristol 29 rudder is that since it is so heavy and "hanging" on the back of the keel at a 45 degree angle, over 20 years or so the pintel will wear out of round and the boat will exhibit shimmy in the rudder when the boat is sailing at speed. The shimmy is nothing to worry about, but it is a weakness in the system. I replaced the original bronze pintel and it was worn on the forward surface. I have had no issues with the replacement pintel I made.

Another issue to keep in mind in building the rudder is that the distance from the top of the rudder to the underside of the hull must be greater than the height of the pintel or you will not be able to lift the rudder off the pintel. A better engineering solution to the pintel that I wish Herreshoff and the Bristol yard had employed would be to create a tube for the pintel drop out of the bottom of the rudder shoe and secure it with the athwartships bolt, so that the pintel can be removed. Or, build a bronze or stainless shoe that through bolts to the keel. But it is what it is. Again, as I have said above, the key is to build a strong rudder stop to keep the rudder from lifting.


Restoring a Bristol 29 in my backyard. www.bristol29.com

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cadetrob

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#12 [url]

Apr 30 12 6:38 AM

Hi David, I found the hull number and she is number 121. I thought I saw a washer on your rudder shoe and that's why I asked. It makes total sense to me that you added that. I wonder why Bristol didn't. Does the gudgeon have a "lip" that meets the washer? I do remember sailing on the boat in the past and feeling that shimmy that you speak of. Besides the pintel wearing, I'm thinking now how many times the boat might have been slung on its rudder. Thanks for the heads up. That will be something that I bring to a yard's attention when hauling and launching. Thanks for bringing to my attention the distance needed between the rudder and hull bottom! That will save me a future headaches :-) It's ironic that you mentioned you wished Bristol designed a tube for the pintel to drop out of because I am talking to a shipyard that may build the rudder for me and they mentioned drilling a drain hole in the shoe. What do you think? You also mentioned you wished that Bristol built, " a bronze or stainless shoe that through bolts to the keel."   That's what I was thinking when I stated I was thinking of adding an "aftermarket" pintel. I was thinking of through bolting one to the keel. If the shipyard doesn't build the rudder (they are very busy now), they highly recommended Foss Foam Product in Florida. Below is a link with some nice pics of their rudder construction work.  Have any opinion  of them? Do I remember this right: You recommend a stainless steel pintel, gudgeon and rudder post? Thanks again for all the info as it will help greatly as the rudder is built! Rob

http://newrudders.com/?page_id=12


I also found these rudder rebuilding companies:

http://www.boatrudder.com/rudders.htm#top

http://www.fastcomposites.ca/site/marine/rudder-posts-spars-and-tubes/

http://www.idasailor.com/catalog/default.php

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#13 [url]

Apr 30 12 1:26 PM

Rob,

The rudder companies look good, albeit expensive. I would certainly insist on an aluminum bronze or silicon bronze (bronze without zinc in it for underwater use) and a solid rudder post, not pipe for any reason, which would mean that the internal webbing must be of the same material. If stainless, it should all be of 316 stainless, nothing less and the welds must be done with 316 welding rods. But having said that I’m sure they can build you a good rudder. I would strongly suggest that you stick to the size and dimensions of the original rudder, regardless of what they tell you. Halsey Herreshoff designed the rudder exactly for the boat and I can guarantee there is no designer around who can create a better rudder for this boat.

Not sure what you want a drain in the rudder shoe for (since it is submerged).


David 

Restoring a Bristol 29 in my backyard. www.bristol29.com

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cadetrob

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#14 [url]

Apr 30 12 5:35 PM

I called 3 rudder builders and emailed them the link with the rudder dimensions you posted and any other info I could give them. They're going to get back to me; I'll keep you posted. I got the best vibe from Rudder Craft but they gave me a preliminary estimate of $2500 with a bronze rudder post and shipping. (yikes) I'm thinking it will be close to a miracle that they ship it to me and it fits as planned. lol  Thanks, Rob

I found this pipe inside the hose from the seacock to the sink drain. Do you think this was part of the seacock and it broke off? There is a pic of the galley sink seacock in my first or second post above. 

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#15 [url]

Apr 30 12 7:04 PM



Rob,

I would have guess much higher in price for a foam cored rudder.  Based on the photo of the seacock for your sink, I would say that the seacock is complete. It is a tapered plug Wilcox Crittenton seacock, as are all the seacock in the boat. If you rebuild them, and religiously work them each time you are on the boat, they will last forever. Having said that, if the are neglected, they will seize up, and if in an open condition, sometimes cannot be closed. I don't know why the pipe was inside the sink hose.

Good luck with it,

David

Restoring a Bristol 29 in my backyard. www.bristol29.com

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#16 [url]

Apr 30 12 7:18 PM




I called 3 rudder builders and emailed them the link with the rudder dimensions you posted and any other info I could give them. They're going to get back to me; I'll keep you posted. I got the best vibe from Rudder Craft but they gave me a preliminary estimate of $2500 with a bronze rudder post and shipping. (yikes) I'm thinking it will be close to a miracle that they ship it to me and it fits as planned. lol  Thanks, RobI found this pipe inside the hose from the seacock to the sink drain. Do you think this was part of the seacock and it broke off? There is a pic of the galley sink seacock in my first or second post above. [image]

-cadetrob

Rob, I would also give them measurements on your boat from the top of the rudder shoe in a straight line to the rudder tube where the post enters the hull. The shoe will need to be cleaned up and probably rebuild with epoxy to support the new pintel, unless you are going with a bolt-on rudder shoe. Please remember to keep the bottom edge of the rudder slightly higher than the bottom of the keel so that the rudder can still be moved if the boat is aground.

David

Restoring a Bristol 29 in my backyard. www.bristol29.com

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cadetrob

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#17 [url]

May 1 12 7:17 AM

Hi David, The $2500 was from Rudder Craft and they didn't tell me whether they would use marine plywood or foam. Foss Foam of Florida hasn't given me an estimate yet....still waiting.Thanks for the tip on measuring the distance from the rudder shoe to rudder tube.  I was wondering about the rudder shoe so thanks for telling because that was my next question; I was going to ask what to use to build it up. I'll use the epoxy like you said. My job is to focus on the rudder shoe and pintal while they build the rudder. 

Do I have any chance of closing the sink seacock?? It seems that ALL the seacocks are seized open...except the head seacock which is seized closed.  And the PO was sailing like that for the last 15 years. 

Also, I called the Herreshoff Museum in Bristol to see if they had a schematic for the rudder. They gave me the number for Herreshoff Designs that are still in business. I'm hoping they may be able to give me rudder schematics? I'm waiting for a return call.  Are those measurements you drew up for the rudder for the guy in Guam pretty accurate? Because if I can't get a schematic, my best hope is your measurements. You probably already know that Herreshoff Designs are still around but I posted a link of their site of their Newport 29. I cannot help but see the connection to our B29's. I'm really loving the history and design of this boat and that there are people like you who share a strong interest in the boat......I've always especially admired sailboats from the 1960's. 

Thanks, Rob

http://www.herreshoffdesigns.com/newport29.html

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#18 [url]

May 1 12 11:30 AM

Rob,

The measurements for the rudder are as close as I could get them, taken off from the rudder on my boat. Keep in mind that the B29 is very much a hand built boat, the hull is not exact in shape in dimension port side to starboard side; for instance, the cockpit on my boat (#165) is shifted about two inches to port so that the starboard side deck is wider than the port side deck; etc. That being said, the rudder on my boat should fit your boat, given that the distance from bottom to the top of the rudder shoe is the same. Please measure that and compare with the 60” measurement on my boat. If that’s the same everything else should match up.

As for the seacocks: they will indeed freeze if not worked periodically. The way to unfreeze them is:

  1. Loosen the packing nut on the side of the seacock; do not remove, but back it off say an 1/8th of an inch.
  2. Tap the end of the shaft the nut is treaded on with a brass hammer, that will break the tapered cone lose and allow you to turn it. Once it begins to turn, use some valve lapping compound on the tapered cone to lap the cone to the cavity, remove the corrosion and make a tight fit.
  3. Retighten the packing nut until the cone is hard to turn but still turns.
  4. If you do this when the boat is in the water, you may get some water seeping past the nut and washer. Don’t worry about it, but for obvious reasons, don’t remove the nut entirely as a safety precaution.

Once you get them all lapped and smooth working, be sure to work each seacock once a month, open and close each one about 10 times to keep them free.


David

Restoring a Bristol 29 in my backyard. www.bristol29.com

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cadetrob

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#19 [url]

May 1 12 1:54 PM

Hi David, Thanks for the detailed seacock info...I will definitely give it a try. And I'll measure that rudder space distance like you said.


 I spoke with Herreshoff Designs and they don't have any rudder drawings. It's like you said, they were hand built at the yard. They told me to call the new owners, Bristol Marine, which is a yard now, not a builder.  BM told me that they have old Bristol drawings (but not sure if there are rudder drawings) but there is a fee for the search, whether they can find the rudder drawing or not. I was told to call BM tomorrow to speak with another that had more info on the old drawings. I got the vibe that the old drawings are disheveled somewhere collecting cobwebs in the building they bought from Bristol Yachts. 

Thanks again, I'll keep you posted.

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cadetrob

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#20 [url]

May 3 12 7:20 AM

Btw, Is there an up to date overall shot of your boat with all the work you have done? Would love to see one.  I see a lot of detailed close-ups of work done but not an overall shot......like of the ones you posted of Maloha. 

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